Oct 12 (1/1): Can We Stop Mexican Joker?

Bozo Texino

Was Russia also going to vote to condemn Turkey’s invasion?

Average Reds

A more interesting question would be whether they knew ahead of time that they wouldn’t have to use their veto to block the resolution.

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Exclusive: Military leader of Syrian Kurds tells US ‘you are leaving us to be slaughtered’

TallerThanPedroia

NBC chief foreign correspondent:

“Turkey’s conflict in Syria took a major turn today. First alleged atrocities by Turkish-backed Arab militias, executing Kurds. US military officials tell me it’s true, and they are DEEPLY concerned it opens the door to BOTH ethnic cleansing of Kurds and return of ISIS/Al-Qaeda “

Marciano490

Maybe I still have South Park’s Mexican Joker episode in my head, but deserting a allies and acquiescing in their slaughter seems like a really good way to sign off on generations of the survivors hating the US.

Reverend

The Kurds are probably the people in the region most on “the right side of history” too.

It’s an over-generalization, sure. But the bar is kinda low. But the Kurds have been engaging in some very interesting politics that simply isn’t being covered here for large-p “Political reasons.” Really fascinating self-conscious democratic theory and experiments going on, which may be why basically everyone around them is fighting them. 🙂

If anyone is interested, instead of googling “SDF” and “Kurds,” check out “Rojava”. Really interesting stuff. It may well be the most interesting experiment in free liberal democracy on the planet right now, like the New England town meeting or the Paris Commune were in their own days, but with more guns.

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ZMart100

Sounds like it has and the Turkish media are celebrating

I’m not particularly worried about Iran attacking the Turks here. The protests seem to be mostly the Iranian Kurdish minority. They are easily ignored by the Persians actually running the country.

Reverend

I was more intrigued that Iran appeared to be allowing the protests of the Turkish embassy.

Like you said: They don’t give a shit abut the Kurds.

Reverend

Just for good measure to pull a bunch of strands of this thread on the region together, there appear to be significant protests of Turkey’s actions in Iran.

So that’s fun.

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QUESTIONS RE: TURKEY INVOKING ARTICLE V OF NATO

Reverend

They would try, and have explored it in the past. They even invoked article 4 emergency powers once in the past, which resulted in them receiving air defenses in response to the downed jet. But it was wifey believed they really wanted to invoke article 5 and just didn’t believe they’d have the support to pull it off.

That possibility has been complicated recently by the US’s backing of SDF, who fights both Turkey and ISIS, so in effect, the US was backing forces fighting another NATO country based on the premise that they only supported them when they fight ISIS and not when they fight Turkey. (US nationals fighting in the region have been told that they could be charged with terrorism is they fight Turkey, but fighting ISIS is cool.)

Turkey would have been wary of kicking that beehive while the US was playing a role given the complicated nature of our role. Now? We’ll see if Turkey goes for it again.

.Reverend

This is a cool piece on what “the Kurds” are all about and their positioning in the region is from the POV of the ground.

Mother Jones: I Went to Syria and Met the People Trump Just Gave Turkey Permission to Kill
An anarchist revolution—and the Americans volunteering to defend it.

The last part about that radicals of all stripes protecting their hopes and dreams on the canvas of a chaotic and unformed Syria was particularly poignant. The place is a mess and all the messy people are dabbing their fingers in it.

AB in DC

I wouldn’t say impeachment worthy, but this needs to be front page news on NYT/WP/CNN/etc. Haven’t we learned anything from Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. etc. etc?

AB in DC

Actually, I take that back re impeachment. There’s enough question about Trump’s foreign policy that Bribery/Treason can’t be ruled out. If there were a lefty version of Fox News they’d be hammering this angle 24/7.

Reverend

Who knows what will happen, but it is already in the process of coming to pass.

Specifically, pictures are emerging of TFSA (Turkish backed Free Syrian Army) units with members openly wearing ISIS and al-queda insignias. (Many consider TFSA and ISIS to be observationally equivalent in terms of their immediate goals.) Also, ISIS has claimed responsibility for car bombings in cities under Turkish shelling, including one that appears to have been part of a jailbreak by ISIS prisoners.

The Kurds have said they cannot protect the ISIS prisoners on their own. Also, it’s been reported that one of the remaining US positions experienced “bracketing” fire from Turkey around their position, believed to be an attempt to make them move back or, at least, not move around.

I dunno how many comic book readers there are here, but remember in Marvel’s Civil War where the government recruits a bunch of super villains to help them get the super heroes?

AB in DC

Well, except for the whole bit about “Treason, Bribery, and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors” that the Constitution requires. But otherwise, yeah.

SoFloSoxFan

Disqualifyingly incompetent horribly ill-advised foreign policy is not technically an impeachable offense, as far as I know. If Trump chose this route because Putin told him to, or in order to protect his business interests or what have you, it is absolutely impeachable.

dhappy42

If you can impeach a president for lying about a blow job, you can impeach a president for giving Turkey a green light to slaughter Kurds and revitalizing ISIS. But that’s because in practice the House can impeach a president for any reason. For Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds to be an impeachable offense under “normal” rules, there’d have to be some kind of corruption, abuse of power or treason involved. Given it’s Trump, there almost certainly is.

Reverend

You’re probably right.

But if you can figure out who besides Erdogan benefits from this, you should write it up and get it out there because this has left seemingly everybody scratching their heads.

dhappy42

Putin benefits. There is nothing good about this. It’s appalling and exhibit #927 of Trump acting against US interests, but in favor of Russia’s national interests. But so far (or as far as I know) there’s no public evidence that Trumps decision is based on anything other than stupidity and/or obsequiousness. I expect that will change and we wil find out he sold out the Kurds in exchange for some favor.

SoFloSoxFan

Under “normal” rules there has to be, as stated before ” the whole bit about “Treason, Bribery, and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors” that the Constitution requires “.

Lying about a blow job under oath was perjury.

I understand impeachment is an entirely political process and what is impeachable is up to the majority of the house at any given moment, and I don’t really doubt there is some underlying crime here. I was only saying that as Commander in Chief, that ordering troops to stand down , as inhumane as it is, as damaging to the USA moving forward as it will be, as evil as it seems to be, is not actually a crime as far as I can tell.

dhappy42

I think I’m agreeing with you, with the caveat that since we’re talking about Trump, there’s likely an underlying corrupt and or criminal component to betrayal of the Kurds.

Edit: You talkin to me? No? Nevermind.

SoFloSoxFan

I don’t think I said that, but I’m not married to my non expert views on this. Even though the constitution doesn’t actually mention the Oath in the impeachment section, I’m willing to listen to how what he did is against the oath of office.

SoFloSoxFan

I think we’re essentially in total agreement on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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